Greatest Hockey Player Ever

[Wetundies]

Brent Gretzky was never really great.

[supersuk]

goalies and defensemen sucked back then

[tiger]

You mean like Paul Coffey, Ray Bourque, Scott Stevens, Chris Chelios, Al MacInnis, Larry Murphy? Or Larry Robinson who was a career +730? Name some of the 'awesome' defensemen that are in the league now?? Lidstrom? began his career in 91, same with Neidermayer. Pronger in 93.

So you're talking about the awesome defensemen now like Yandle, Byfuglien, Ehrhoff and Phaneuf?

Goalies didn't suck back then, the equipment got bigger for the goalies now. Remember when Garth Snow looked like a monster in net with his huge chest and neck protectors? Plus that giant thing behind his neck and shoulders. That's when the NHL started cracking down on goalie equipment b/c an average goalie could look like a superstar. ie. Chris Osgood.

Remember, before the 79 expansion, there were only 18 teams, and then 21 teams with the Oilers, Jets, and Whalers. The NHL's watered down on talent now, so Crosby is playing with bums. But they are also playing against bums. Almost 1/3 of the current NHLers would not be in the league now because they wouldn't be good enough. So some will argue that the current NHL teams suck more than the old NHL teams. Your backup goalie in the 80's is a #1 now. Imagine Brodeur having Vokoun or Backstrom as a back up. Luongo having Kipper as a backup instead of those years of Hedberg, Back up bob, etc. On D, none of the current #5 or #6 defensemen would be in the league. Your top 6 in the 80's would consist only d in the top 4 of each NHL team. Same with forward lines. None of the 4th line and 1 player from the 3rd line wouldn't be in the NHL. So for the Canucks, one of Higgins, Hansen or Malhotra would be a career AHLer, along with the entire 4th line. The Sedins would be playing with a true #1 RW, like Horton or maybe St. Louis or Iginla, if the Canucks drafted well.


At least, show some stats to support your statements.

Goal scoring has been down in the NHL. So are the goalies better? If current forwards are better, then why can't they score on the better goalies?
1987-88 Team goals for: 242 (North Stars) to 397 (by Calgary Flames).
Last year in NHL: 192 (Ott) to 262 (Van).

I find this a pretty good comparable stat:

05-06 (Crosby's rookie, 1st year after lockout): 197 (StL) to 306 (Ott). Crosby 102 pts, team 244 goals, played with semi-stars. Next closest teammate: Gonchar with 58 pts, Recchi with 57 in 63 games.
79-80 (Gretz's rookie year): 214 (jets) to 328 (Habs). Gretz - 137 pts, Team 301 goals, played with bums. Next closest teammate: Blair MacDonald with 94 points and Stan Weir with 66. Who? Exactly.

10% more league scoring on aveage across the NHL when comparing 79-80 to 05-06. Pitts and Edm were both bad teams. Edmonton scores 25% more goals with gretz, than Pitts with Crosby. Even with a 25% increase for Crosby (301 goals vs 244), that puts Crosby at 127 pts which is still less than Gretz's 137. maybe perhaps it's just that Gretzky is 25% better.

Crosby is a very good player and perhaps will considered a great player if his career continues at this pace. But as for the rest of the NHL stars, they would have been stars too, but not superstars.

Compare the 80's Oilers with the Cup winning Pens. Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Gonchar, Letang, Golgoski, Sykora. Fleury. Not bad. Oilers had Gretzky, Messier, Kurri, Coffey, Fuhr. Add in Anderson and Lowe as lower end stars. Team seems pretty similar.

But the Pens didn't dominate like the Oilers. IMO, it was because Gretzky was that much more dominant than Malkin/Crosby. Also, the domination of Gretzky and Oilers went up as the team developed it stars and got better. The Pens have added stars and haven't got to the point that they dominate the league.

Maybe I'll do a comparison with Lemieux next, if I got time.

One other note: Pavel Bure came into the NHL 20 years ago. I don't see any current NHL player as explosive has him. Ovechkin comes close but he's tailed off. I expect Ovie to get better as he plays more in the NHL, but it hasn't happened. Bure got better and better.

[tiger]

Going to play devil's advocate.

The NHL teams in the 80's were not as good as today's teams. Players are better conditioned and the systems are better.

Current NHL conditioning and systems were in place in the 80's, but not in the NHL. It was already implemented by the Red Army.

Watch this: (this was an exhibition, and I don't see a lot of the big stars from the Oilers playing, but watch the Russians.)


Here's the link to the 85-86 Oilers team if you want to see who's playing and wearing what number.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leag ... 11986.html

[tiger]

If you want to see some old legends play, check this off-season head to head showdown contests they use to have. Too bad they don't do it now.



Watch Bossy's 1 on 1 shootout.


Gilbert Perreault vs. Rick MacLeish

check out MacLeish's accuracy.

Both these guys are better than the Sedin's at 1 on 1.

[joel]

[Wetundies]

i thought Dave was busy with work? Where does he find the time to come up with these stats?

[tiger]

lol...always time for hockey talk. I'm in withdrawl.

Plus morons on other sites comparing Gretzky to Jason Allison.

[jeSteR]

Uh... isn't comparing Mason Raymond to Bobby Orr just as moronic?

[tiger]

More interesting stats:

05-06 Brodeur - GAA 2.57, SV% 0.911.
88-89 Roy - GAA 2.47, SV% 0.908.

Also 05-06 Thornton and Jagr were 1 and 2 in the scoring race, with about 20 pts more than Crosby and Ovechkin. Jagr was 34 at the time.

Rookie Crosby < Old Jagr. Young Jagr < Old Lemieux.
Rookie Gretzky < entire league.

In his 2nd year, Gretzky breaks Phil Esposito's record for most points, and Bobby Orr's record for most assists. Jari Kurri, Glen Anderson, Paul Coffey are all rookies and Messier plays his 1st full NHL season.

Gretzky got 164 points, Kurri got 74 (who was 2nd in team scoring). Edmonton scores 328 goals (about 25% more than the Canucks last year).

Crosby would have got 129 pts if he played a full season this year (extrapolated from PPG), which would have been a pretty good year historically compared to Gretzky's 2nd year. Crosby would have to get about 150 points to be close to the comparison of Gretzky's 215 pts, adjusted for the open 80's.

If Crosby played in the 80's, I think he could put up 160 to 180 points, maybe close to 190, if he had the right teammates.

[tiger]

97-98 Season where no NHL team got more than 262 goals (Canucks in 2010-11) Max is 256. Crosby would be dominant, if he played a full season. Look who got 83 pts in 81 games!!

Player Team GP G A PTS
Jaromir Jagr Pittsburgh 77 35 67 102
Peter Forsberg Colorado 72 25 66 91
Pavel Bure Vancouver 82 51 39 90
Wayne Gretzky NY Rangers 82 23 67 90
John LeClair Philadelphia 82 51 36 87
Zigmund Palffy NY Islanders 82 45 42 87
Ron Francis Pittsburgh 81 25 62 87
Teemu Selanne Anaheim 73 52 34 86
Jason Allison Boston 81 33 50 83
Jozef Stumpel Los Angeles 77 21 58 79


Total goals per game, i.e. both teams combined.
Here are the trends:
- slightly over 6 in 1946
- dipped to under 5 by 1952
- rose back to just under somewhat under 6 and fluctuate around that mark from 1958-1970
- from 1970-1985 rose quickly, to a peak of just under 8 from 1982-85
- from 1985-2003/04 dropped quickly, to just over 5 in 2003/04
- rose dramatically in 2005/06
- dropped back to around 6 in 2007/08
You can get the full stats from:
http://www.dropyourgloves.com/Stats/LeagueGoals.aspx

[tiger]

My all time list: (forwards, offensive scoring and dominance)

1A. Gretz
1B. Lemieux
1C. Orr
4. Howe
5. Jagr
6. Crosby (still depends on the rest of his career).
7. Rocket Richard
8. Phi Esposito
9. Forsberg
10. can't pick...deciding between these guys.

Sakic, Yzerman, P. Stastny, Francis, Bure, Bossy, Bobby Hull, Lindros

[Wetundies]

U should pick Jason allison

[tiger]

Since you pick ahead of me this year, you should do it.

I'll give you Rene Bourque for free if you pick him with your 1st round pick.

[Wetundies]

What a deal!!